*HTML is ON *UBB Code is ON Smilies Legend
Smilies Legend
If you have previously registered, but forgotten your password, click here.
T O P I C R E V I E WBlackarrowI recently found an online copy of the original manuscript version of the poem "High Flight" by John Gillespie Magee Jr. It is in a letter to his parents. I noticed that the 11th line reads: Where never lark, or ever eagle flew — Several slight variations appear online and in poetry books, and the line carved on the Challenger Memorial at Arlington reads: Where never lark, or even eagle flew. We can speculate that if Magee had survived WW2 he might have made some minor changes to his original handwritten words, but he didn't. Somewhere along the way, did some publisher decide that the poem might look better with "even" instead of "ever"? I have a book of popular poetry in which the line reads: Where never lark nor even eagle flew; What should we treat as the "correct" wording? It seems obvious to adhere to the poet's actual words, but does that mean the Challenger Memorial is flawed? Or does the solemn and historic nature of the monument allow it to acquire the rights to the "definitive wording?"Robert PearlmanLiterature specialist Peter Armenti addresses this in a 2013 blog entry for the U.S. Library of Congress: The most authoritative transcription of the poem appears in the book "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations Requested from the Congressional Research Service" (Washington, D.C.: Library of Congress, 1989)...Respectfully Quoted‘s entry for the poem notes the following of reprintings:"The reprintings vary in punctuation, capitalization, and indentation from the original manuscript... Some portions are faded and difficult to read, but the version above follows Magee's as exactly as can be made out, following his pencilled note on another poem, "If anyone should want this please see that it is accurately copied, capitalized, and punctuated." Nearly all versions use "...even eagle," but to the editor’s careful scrutiny, it was "ever," formed exactly like the preceding "never." David C quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:...does that mean the Challenger Memorial is flawed? I wouldn't say flawed on that account, there is a legitimate dispute about the exact original wording. In my personal opinion it is the selection of the poem itself that is questionable. It is extremely well known in aviation circles. Its selection by Reagan's speechwriter and subsequent placement on the Challenger memorial lacks originality to the point of laziness, and does smack of appropriation. But that's just my opinion after attending many an aviator's funeral. I would have expected more effort than just reaching for the standard cliché.ea757grrlIn defense of the quote from "High Flight" in the Reagan speech, it was a speech that had to be written and vetted (by non-aviation types) in a short period of time, and had to be comforting in a moment when we were all pretty shocked. I also imagine that to the general public it didn't seem the cliche it seems among many in the aviation/space community. For some, Reagan's speech may have been the first time they'd heard the line or become aware of the poem. For my part, I remember the day vividly and thought Reagan's speech hit the right note on a day that felt like an enormous punch in the heart. I've heard "High Flight" many times since to the point of cliche, but that quote on that day, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't have been more apt.GACspaceguyI agree with the above. Being in the aviation industry it amazes me the number of those who have not heard of the poem let alone the iconic line. We do need to recognize that we have an "aviation/space" language that most people do not recognize. randyI also agree with the above. "High Flight" was definitely appropriate for the memorial.Ken HavekotteJim Irwin carried with him to the moon copies of the High Flight poems of which I had copies of a while back.Robert Pearlman quote:Originally posted by David C:Its selection by Reagan's speechwriter... The speechwriter in this instance was Peggy Noonan, who wrote about composing the address for AARP magazine in 2015. The end of the speech involved a mystery.As I worked, I had watched, over and over, the videotape of the astronauts walking that morning toward the shuttle in their space suits. Awkwardly, humorously, with heavy-gloved hands, they had waved goodbye. I remembered a poem I'd learned in the seventh grade in public school on Long Island — "High Flight" by John Gillespie Magee Jr., an American who'd volunteered for the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940. In the poem he spoke of the joy of flying, of the sensation of breaking free from gravity, breaking "the surly bonds of earth."I put that line at the end of the speech, but I knew that Reagan would say it only if he knew that poem, if it mattered to him.I had a hunch he did. Did he?When Reagan spoke, live from the big desk in the Oval Office, he said at the end, "We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them — this morning, as they prepared for their journey, and waved goodbye, and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.' "He looked stricken. I learned later that he had thought, as he gave the speech, that it had not succeeded, didn't quite do what needed doing.But by the next morning, something had shifted. The president called me. He told me he hadn't thought it had gone well but had concluded, after the reaction, that it did. He laughed and said Frank Sinatra had called him, and Frank didn't call after every speech!He asked how I knew he knew the poem "High Flight." I said I didn't. He said he used to read it when he dropped off his daughter Patti at grade school. It was written on a plaque outside.Neither of us could have imagined, when we first read that poem, what it would mean to us years later, on Jan. 28, 1986.Chariot412First read this poem when I about 12 years old, in a book you may have heard of: "Carrying the Fire."BlackarrowI note that in the copy which Michael Collins carried with him to the moon, typed by his wife Pat, the line to which I have drawn attention reads: Where never lark, or even eagle flew — Members of our space enthusiast community have some experience and expertise in distinguishing forged astronaut signatures from the real thing. I suggest (as does Peter Armenti, quoted above by Robert) that careful scrutiny of Magee's handwritten original shows that "even" should be "ever." However, Armenti's blog contains one transcription of the poem and refers to "the most authoritative transcription" sourced elsewhere. Very surprisingly, both transcriptions wrongly use "nor" instead of "or." Parts of the original are faint, but there is no doubt that Magee wrote "or", not "nor."In case anyone thinks I have neglected to mention the discussion about President Reagan's address, I remember the speech like it was yesterday. Reagan set the tone perfectly and said exactly what needed said, and at that time it wasn't just Americans who were hurting.David C quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:Very surprisingly, both transcriptions wrongly use "nor" instead of "or." Parts of the original are faint, but there is no doubt that Magee wrote "or", not "nor." You're absolutely right! I assume though that this all comes back to your original question of — does the monument come to acquire the definitive wording? Of course the answer is no. I don't think its designers are at fault though. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to have to go back to the original manuscript of a document to check it before quoting it.Thanks for the insight into President Reagan's speech writer's thoughts Robert. I sold them short on the process, but I haven't changed my opinion on the result. I'm not surprised that mine is a minority view. I do think that his memorial service speech was far better.Captain ApolloAnd the discrepant - , and ;garymilgromI had to look up discrepant and got the following: "Marked by discrepancy; disagreeing."I don't understand what you object to. If it's the word "and" in Reagan's speech I disagree. I think he (or the speechwriter) tied together two different images very well - the astronauts walking out to their vehicle, and the end result of the tragedy. Am I understanding your inference correctly? oly quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:I recently found an online copy of the original manuscript version... As cited above, a scan of the original is available from the Library of Congress website, in a blog by Peter Armenti. It also details that the "Library of Congress receives many inquiries each year about the correct wording and punctuation.Looking at the scan it is difficult to determine how the pencil on thin airmail paper document reads. Using image processing software to increase the contrast of the image helps somewhat, however, the handwriting and document condition have been causing raised questioned many times (see the comments at the end of the LOC page).dtempleI searched for the meaning of "laughter-silvered wings" on the internet, but found none with an adequate explanation. I suspect it was meant to be lacquered-silvered wings since some planes (which appeared to be virtually all natural metal) were partially painted with silver paint. I believe parts of the P-51D/K were coated with silver paint if I recall correctly.David CIt's poetry not a flight manual. He's speaking in metaphor.oly quote:Originally posted by dtemple:I believe parts of the P-51D/K were coated with silver paint if I recall correctly.My word old chap, a Peee-51?? oh my giddy aunt! Magee flew Spits old boy, British compact killing machines, not those American Cadillac with wings thingies with engines stolen from the brits to make them into real aeroplanes. Spitfires old boy. Spitfires!BlackarrowHeaven help me, I'm responsible for this. I seem to have created a monster.olyHigh Flight was read at Chuck Yeager's memorial. Very apt. BlackarrowAgreed!
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew —
Where never lark, or even eagle flew.
Where never lark nor even eagle flew;
The most authoritative transcription of the poem appears in the book "Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations Requested from the Congressional Research Service" (Washington, D.C.: Library of Congress, 1989)...Respectfully Quoted‘s entry for the poem notes the following of reprintings:"The reprintings vary in punctuation, capitalization, and indentation from the original manuscript... Some portions are faded and difficult to read, but the version above follows Magee's as exactly as can be made out, following his pencilled note on another poem, "If anyone should want this please see that it is accurately copied, capitalized, and punctuated." Nearly all versions use "...even eagle," but to the editor’s careful scrutiny, it was "ever," formed exactly like the preceding "never."
Respectfully Quoted‘s entry for the poem notes the following of reprintings:
"The reprintings vary in punctuation, capitalization, and indentation from the original manuscript... Some portions are faded and difficult to read, but the version above follows Magee's as exactly as can be made out, following his pencilled note on another poem, "If anyone should want this please see that it is accurately copied, capitalized, and punctuated." Nearly all versions use "...even eagle," but to the editor’s careful scrutiny, it was "ever," formed exactly like the preceding "never."
quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:...does that mean the Challenger Memorial is flawed?
In my personal opinion it is the selection of the poem itself that is questionable. It is extremely well known in aviation circles. Its selection by Reagan's speechwriter and subsequent placement on the Challenger memorial lacks originality to the point of laziness, and does smack of appropriation. But that's just my opinion after attending many an aviator's funeral. I would have expected more effort than just reaching for the standard cliché.
For my part, I remember the day vividly and thought Reagan's speech hit the right note on a day that felt like an enormous punch in the heart. I've heard "High Flight" many times since to the point of cliche, but that quote on that day, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't have been more apt.
quote:Originally posted by David C:Its selection by Reagan's speechwriter...
The end of the speech involved a mystery.As I worked, I had watched, over and over, the videotape of the astronauts walking that morning toward the shuttle in their space suits. Awkwardly, humorously, with heavy-gloved hands, they had waved goodbye. I remembered a poem I'd learned in the seventh grade in public school on Long Island — "High Flight" by John Gillespie Magee Jr., an American who'd volunteered for the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940. In the poem he spoke of the joy of flying, of the sensation of breaking free from gravity, breaking "the surly bonds of earth."I put that line at the end of the speech, but I knew that Reagan would say it only if he knew that poem, if it mattered to him.I had a hunch he did. Did he?When Reagan spoke, live from the big desk in the Oval Office, he said at the end, "We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them — this morning, as they prepared for their journey, and waved goodbye, and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.' "He looked stricken. I learned later that he had thought, as he gave the speech, that it had not succeeded, didn't quite do what needed doing.But by the next morning, something had shifted. The president called me. He told me he hadn't thought it had gone well but had concluded, after the reaction, that it did. He laughed and said Frank Sinatra had called him, and Frank didn't call after every speech!He asked how I knew he knew the poem "High Flight." I said I didn't. He said he used to read it when he dropped off his daughter Patti at grade school. It was written on a plaque outside.Neither of us could have imagined, when we first read that poem, what it would mean to us years later, on Jan. 28, 1986.
As I worked, I had watched, over and over, the videotape of the astronauts walking that morning toward the shuttle in their space suits. Awkwardly, humorously, with heavy-gloved hands, they had waved goodbye. I remembered a poem I'd learned in the seventh grade in public school on Long Island — "High Flight" by John Gillespie Magee Jr., an American who'd volunteered for the Royal Canadian Air Force in 1940. In the poem he spoke of the joy of flying, of the sensation of breaking free from gravity, breaking "the surly bonds of earth."
I put that line at the end of the speech, but I knew that Reagan would say it only if he knew that poem, if it mattered to him.
I had a hunch he did. Did he?
When Reagan spoke, live from the big desk in the Oval Office, he said at the end, "We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them — this morning, as they prepared for their journey, and waved goodbye, and 'slipped the surly bonds of earth' to 'touch the face of God.' "
He looked stricken. I learned later that he had thought, as he gave the speech, that it had not succeeded, didn't quite do what needed doing.
But by the next morning, something had shifted. The president called me. He told me he hadn't thought it had gone well but had concluded, after the reaction, that it did. He laughed and said Frank Sinatra had called him, and Frank didn't call after every speech!
He asked how I knew he knew the poem "High Flight." I said I didn't. He said he used to read it when he dropped off his daughter Patti at grade school. It was written on a plaque outside.
Neither of us could have imagined, when we first read that poem, what it would mean to us years later, on Jan. 28, 1986.
Where never lark, or even eagle flew —
In case anyone thinks I have neglected to mention the discussion about President Reagan's address, I remember the speech like it was yesterday. Reagan set the tone perfectly and said exactly what needed said, and at that time it wasn't just Americans who were hurting.
quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:Very surprisingly, both transcriptions wrongly use "nor" instead of "or." Parts of the original are faint, but there is no doubt that Magee wrote "or", not "nor."
Thanks for the insight into President Reagan's speech writer's thoughts Robert. I sold them short on the process, but I haven't changed my opinion on the result. I'm not surprised that mine is a minority view. I do think that his memorial service speech was far better.
I don't understand what you object to. If it's the word "and" in Reagan's speech I disagree. I think he (or the speechwriter) tied together two different images very well - the astronauts walking out to their vehicle, and the end result of the tragedy. Am I understanding your inference correctly?
quote:Originally posted by Blackarrow:I recently found an online copy of the original manuscript version...
Looking at the scan it is difficult to determine how the pencil on thin airmail paper document reads. Using image processing software to increase the contrast of the image helps somewhat, however, the handwriting and document condition have been causing raised questioned many times (see the comments at the end of the LOC page).
quote:Originally posted by dtemple:I believe parts of the P-51D/K were coated with silver paint if I recall correctly.
My word old chap, a Peee-51?? oh my giddy aunt! Magee flew Spits old boy, British compact killing machines, not those American Cadillac with wings thingies with engines stolen from the brits to make them into real aeroplanes. Spitfires old boy. Spitfires!
Contact Us | The Source for Space History & Artifacts
Copyright 1999-2024 collectSPACE. All rights reserved.